Readers,
I wonder what we all consider to be the difference(s) between Discipline and Punishment? What, for instance, is the fundamental purpose of Discipline – and what purpose does Punishment serve? Is it all about the severity of the offense, or is it more about the severity of the spanking?
As examples, I’ll use a few of my own personal playmates (all of whom are fine with being mentioned in my writing by now, I hope):
Angel and The Very Bad Boy’s Delrin Punishments were assigned when they both crossed the lines of acceptable bratting, repeatedly, after having been warned against such behavior. They both misbehaved by sending bratty ‘Tweets’ (on the social networking site Twitter), publicly, and for everyone to see.
Their punishments were not only somewhat severe in execution, but were videotaped and shared (online, free, for everyone to see). Both the corporal part of the punishments and the public shaming associated with sharing the videos were intended to show them both exactly how displeased I was with their continued line-crossing. It was a matter of not only their behaviors, but their treatment of me, their disciplinarian.
(It’s worth mentioning that they’re both on their best behaviors – most of the time – now.)
Discipline spankings happen a lot around here. My honey at home is always willfully getting himself into some kind of trouble. In recent weeks, and because life sometimes gets in the way of nearly everything, he’s not been spanked much. It’s safe to say that his behavior has gotten a bit out of control.
So I’ve devised some discipline for him. If he wants to act silly all the time, then I’m going to make him FEEL silly. I’ve found a lovely song from kindergarten ‘Head, Shoulders, Knees, and Toes’ online (google it), and am going to stand him in the middle of the room and whack him with a paddle every time he sings ‘Toes’.
I’m trying to discipline him without reinforcing his brattiness by making it ‘fun’ for him (i.e. otk hand spanking), and associate something silly/embarrassing with that behavior in the future. (Don’t think for a second that I am dumb enough to believe that this will forever correct his brattiness, though.)
So what makes one of these a Discipline spanking and the other a Punishment?
For me it’s about whether or not the offender has crossed some quite-possibly-subjective line of “acceptable badness”. We should all encourage and enjoy a certain amount of sass from our bottoms, but we each have personal limits which we don’t want exceeded. Sometimes those limits are easy to define – sometimes not so much.
Help me clear it up? What separates Discipline and Punishment, in your opinion?…
– Dana
Conversations with Spankos: Ch. 16 (Discipline vs. Punishment)
Visit my premium video, DVD, and products website at DanaKaneSpanks.com.
Dana, this may be off-topic enough that you don’t want to post it for this thread. The topic made me wonder if you spank others in a non-disciplinary role…
For example, would you ever spank someone who’s looking for a light and enjoyable experience and who might want to control how hard you’d be spanking them? Would it be difficult to allow for that amount of spankee control over the situation?
Anthony
Ms. Dana, For my money, Discipline is about correcting someone’s behaviour. Punishment is about the consequences of when Discipline does not get the job done. Both should be no-nonsense punishment. But punishment speaks for itself, Strict enough to change someone’s conduct.
At least that’s my two cents. For what its worth I am squirming in this chair right now due to the administration of a discipline spanking.
Well deserved though.
Clyde.
I think it’s a matter of degrees and what each spanking couple associates with the spanking mentally. My punishment spankings are things to be feared. I have no fear of my Domme, but I do fear punishment from her.
I have a series of rules having to do with my well-being and while I am generally good about following them, occasionally I start to slip a bit. When that happens, if I tell her early on in the process, I get a mild spanking of the “Discipline” sort that generally helps me remember my rules and their importance. It’s not a punishment. Yes, it hurts, and yes, it modifies my behavior and puts me back on track to where I’m supposed to be, but it’s not really something I fear or worry about though I do try to avoid it.
A punishment spanking though, for blatant and outright violation of rules or behavior that crosses the line, it’s not only more painful physically, but there’s a harder mental aspect to it, as I know I’ve disappointed her and let down both our expectations of my behavior. While a discipline spanking stings a bit mentally, a punishment spanking has a totally different mental aspect to it.
What you describe with your bottom seems similar. It’s got enough of a mental sting to express your displeasure with his behavior (being silly) but it’s not so extreme that he knows there’s been a total let down of expectations and proper behavior. It’s just a matter of degrees. The spanking isn’t exactly pleasant, but it could be much worse and both of you know it.
~Cras
Great topic. Someone once told me that discipline is “remembering what you *really* want.” I’ve always liked this definition and it has a lot of personal relevance for me in my day-to-day life. I may want that extra beer, sure, but what I really want is to be healthy and hangover free the next day. I may want that blond or other trappings of midlife crisis (a Porsche, anyone), but what I really want is the comfort and security of a committed relationship. I may want to skip doing the dishes to watch TV, but what I really want is a clean and orderly home. Most days I hold this discipline within me – I know what matters vs the temporary temptations that surround each of us on a daily basis. Sometimes, however, I need to look to others to help me remember what I really want. To help me stay true to what really matters to me. If I violate this internal standard, there is someone beyond and outside of me to hold me accountable. This is very comforting, and it can help shape my behavior in those moments where I am wavering.
Punishment, it seems to me, has much more to do with the person I have wronged (vs discipline where I’ve wronged myself). I have broken a rule or a trust with this other person, and as a result of that, and the relationship I might have with them, they can punish me. Not sure if this is totally making sense, but it’s been a long day and I am sorely in need of a sore bottom. :-)
Craig
In my INEXPERIENCED opinion, because I’ve never had to face either… well.. cause I really am a good girl!!!
I think of it as this:
DISCIPLINE is to redirect, or help change a pattern or behaviour.
And PUNISHMENT is for something you did already that you know better about!
UNBrattyLyndsy
Dana (and everyone else) – if you haven’t already read this, I think you should. I stumbled upon this accidentally one day. I haven’t yet formulated my exact opinions on whether or not I agree or to what extent because this is so detailed. And while I am personally intolerant, (but non-judgmental) of M/f discipline – this must be one of the most well thought-out and comprehensive “guides” to discipline and punishment (and all its distinctions) that I have ever come across. It is well worth reading and substituting your preference (F/f F/m or M/m) if M/f doesn’t suit you. It’s a thoroughly excellent read and it seems this author has a pretty good grasp on the concepts. And although I will have to make it a project to really dissect it, my first inclinations when reading it were to believe that this is an overall accurate assessment of probably every type of spanking imaginable. I’d be curious to know if you’d agree.
http://rncblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-types-of-spanking.html
PS (Thanks for the mention, I think… the whole idea of that punishment still makes cringe!)
Another fascinating discussion topic Ms. Dana. As to your first question, for us the purpose of discipline spankings is to ensure order and proper behavior. There are rules that are to be followed and failure to follow those rules results in discipline. Discipline spankings can also be administered “just because” in an effort ot provide ongoing structure and regular reminders of who wears the pants… and who doesn’t.
Punishment spankings, on the other hand, are most often the result of either an egregious error [lying for instance] or a willful attitude, usually of spiteful, childish or disrespectful non-obedience.
[There is of course, the third and fourth categories of spankings, of foreplay or sexual, and spanking for the sake of spanking, respectively. However, since you didn’t choose to include these categories in this discussion, I won’t elaborate further on what the pretty obvious purpose of these types of chastisement are.]
The principal difference between discipline and punishement spankings is severity. Almost all our discipline spankings begin with a warm-up whifh, paradoxically often allows for an even greater number of strokes and the use of significantly more implements. By contrast, punishment spankings never have a warm-up, only relatively severe implements are used and they are used full force from stroke one. Punishment spankings almost always result in tears; discipline spankings rarely do.
Since in our household, we practice bi-directional domestic discipline, either of us can find ourselves on either side of the situation at any time. It’s a little complicted, but it sure is esciting. Andit beats the hell out of pounting, silent treatments, witholding of sex and the like as a way to restor order and affection.
Everyone,
This is why I enjoy these Conversations so much – it’s always so interesting reading about YOUR thoughts and opinions on these various spanking-related subjects.
Thanks to all of you for sharing.
– Dana
I look at is this way . Disipline and maintenance are about the same thing. Its to remember who is in charge and I can be fun.
Punishment is a consequence. I told you not to do X and you chose to do it anyway.
its to show how displeased you are.
Like UNBrattyLyndsy, (yeah right BTW) I do not have personal experience with discipline or punishment either. I will readily admit that the lack of both has had an impact on my life. To me, discipline would be like having someone on a constant basis that looks out for your well being and is there to see that you are doing what is necessary to live a better life, and be a better person. With that, there would be short comings that would need to have consequences. The punishment would have to be something that I absolutely hated, otherwise why would I change the behavior? So the way I see it, discipline is good, punishment is bad….but punishment would be necessary in order to be more disciplined.
I do not enjoy being disciplined or punished during a spanking. I want the spanking to be very sound and thorough . I just love to be spanked for being spanked!