Readers,
What happens when you get exactly what you want, only to find out – quickly – that you didn’t, in fact, want it after all?
This topic has popped up a few times recently, and most notably with a lovely couple that I see annually for a fun/instructional spanking session. He’s the spanko, and the bottom, and she’s the loving and willing, if not fully enthused, spanker. After many years of back-and-forth on the subject of spanking as it relates to their relationship, they’ve come to a good, if often overlooked, agreement : he can ask for an occasional spanking, and she can assign one when/if she feels necessary.
Except. He doesn’t always comply with the spankings which she deems necessary. He says that he always feels as though he wants and needs a disciplinary spanking – and either asks for them outright or behaves in some way as to warrant them, but when it comes down to brass tacks, it just hurts too darn much, and he usually ends up calling an end to the spanking quickly. Since his partner isn’t emotionally invested in the spankings, she usually lets him have his way and ends the spanking.
His fantasy is better than the reality.
The idea of receiving a hard, disciplinary OTK hairbrush spanking certainly tweaks the fantasy gland of many spankos – but is it all it’s cracked up to be? And should you be more careful what you wish for?
In the case of my aforementioned spanko friends, I suggested that he sign an agreement, specifying that he will accept, unquestioningly, any disciplinary spanking which his partner deems necessary, for the next ninety days. During this time, if he does request that she stop or modify the discipline, she should ignore his protests and remind him that he’s getting exactly what he’s asked for – literally and metaphorically, and keep right on spanking until she’s done.
I also suggested that he, the spanko, remember that his partner is showing much understanding, love, and willingness to compromise when it comes to a fetish which she does not share – and that he shouldn’t look a gift spanking in the mouth; at the end of this ninety day agreement, he should either learn to accept her discretion when it comes to spankings (understanding, of course, that no discipline which she’s attempted to carry out has been beyond the realm of reasonable spanking intensity; we’re not talking about hardcore beatings here), or stop asking for them.
While they’ve both agreed that this is a sensible course of action, I’m wondering whether you agree….have I given too much discretion to the top/non-spanko? Or does the spanko have a responsibility to his partner to put up or shut up, so to speak? If the spankee is always in control of the discipline, is it really discipline at all, and is the fantasy therefore unattainable?
What do you think?…
– Dana
I think everyone is doing their best but it sounds to me like a situation that has no choice but to fail.He married her for reasons that had nothing to do with her abilities as a top (which she has no interest in anyway) and even though she is to be lauded to try and become the spanker her husband wants her to be, she has neither the inclination nor the ability. Your solution, while well-intentioned, is a half-measure that isn’t going to make anyone happy. He sounded like a deeply-conflicted soul who doesn’t know what he wants and therefore can never be satisfied with what he’s given. I don’t see any point to signing an agreement for him to submit to punishment that doesn’t satisfy him since it’s all supposed to be for his benefit anyway.
It’s clear that these people love each other very much to try so hard to make each other happy but it seems to me that they aren’t on the same wavelength in this area and never will be. It’s a sad statement since they both obviously WANT to make it work, but it sounds like they’re trying to force a round peg into a square hole and no amount of guidance from you or anyone else is going to change that. It’s a sad situation.
Jonny,
Thank you for taking the time to comment, but I’m saddened that you’re not giving this couple and their spanko lifestyle more credit.
I think you’re overlooking the fact that this couple have been happily married for decades, and that spanking is only a small part of a very successful relationship. There is no way that they will fail, of that I’m quite sure.
Also, the female partner most certainly does show interest in spanking discipline, which is why our fella has the opportunity to turn them down in the first place. Ha!
While I agree that any spanko/non-spanko pairing has it’s nuances and sometime difficulties, I believe that the proof is in the proverbial pudding – so long as you’re working toward goodness, then goodness will come.
Most of the situations I’ve seen similar to theirs take, quite literally, decades to figure out (the VBB and his WW are another successful testament to this), but they do – many many of them – figure it out, to the satisfaction of all involved.
Let’s cross our fingers that the new ideas they’re implementing will give them the chance to experience their process a bit differently, and that that insight may help them better in their spanking compromises.
Best,
Dana
Perhaps I am projecting my own unsuccessful experiences in trying to sustain a spanko relationship with some who didn’t share the fetish. When I attempted it, it was a disaster. But on that occasion, she made no bones about letting me know that she considered what I was into to be a sickness.
I didn’t mean to imply that their relationship was doomed to fail. It’s obvious that they’re willingness to try and meet each other half way indicates that they have a strong bond which will withstand sexual peccadilloes. But I fear that their attempts to satisfy his fetishes are destined to fail because she lacks personal initiative and he doesn’t seem to know what he wants. Again, I’m projecting my own experiences in assuming that he may have a hard time accepting her in the fantasy role he’s trying to get her to fill.
But I join you in crossing my fingers in hoping for their success and repeat my admiration at their devotion to each other in trying to make it work. H ope that they do. :)
Jonny,
I’m sorry to read that your experience was so negative, but, as I’m sure you know, it’s more common than any of us care to discuss. We all deserve someone who loves and understands us – not in spite of, but because of, our differences.
My best,
Dana
For a spanking to be a disciplinary spanking the spanker must be in total charge and she (in my case) must be into administering a sound spanking either because she is an enthused spanker; or, she is enthused at the idea of administering the needed punishment.
James
James,
I agree. There should be an early talk about what the spanker and spankee find acceptable in the overall context of their disciplinary relationship, i.e. how much leverage the spanker has with applied discipline.
Once these early agreements are made, I fully believe that the spanker has not only a reason, but an obligation, to go through with presumed imposed discipline – and the spankee is equally obliged to accept it.
For my friends, I believe that finding that balance will be much easier once it’s been implemented a few times – and he will realize that, once over that initial shocking hill of stinging discomfort, there’s redemption in effective discipline.
– Dana
To me if the spankee is making the decision as to when enough is enough then it isn’t a true punishment. From what I’ve been told punishments last into and well beyond tears, pleading and begging for an end.
I have relayed true accounts of bad behavior and received extremely hard/severe role play spankings incorporating those misdeeds. I don’t have a submissive bone in my body.But I make a pact with myself that I will not ask for the spankings to end. I give my control to my spankers to decide to end them.
It sounds like this guy is very lucky to have a loving partner willing to meet his needs. But maybe he’s also struggling with his need to always be in control. This would be a tough decision to make for a person to agree to accept spankings if he or she either doesn’t think they deserve them and or if they are beyond the bottom’s physical limits.
The unquestionable acceptance of spankings could cause resentment or anger between some partners. Before that’s agreed to, I would suggest outlining WELL ahead of time do’s and don’ts for SPANKABLE vs ACCEPTABLE behavior. There are way too many misunderstandings that can arise in spanking relationships when people are not on the same page.
Alexis,
I agree that all boundaries and agreements must be discussed prior to entering a domestic discipline lifestyle. Knowing and respecting one’s partners boundaries is essential to the trust we need to pull this kind of lifestyle off.
And yes, I do believe that some of my spanko friend’s hesitancy does stem from the expected male/masculine mores with which so many male spankees wrestle. It’s paradoxical for them to be in control, responsible, and all-guy for the majority of their lives, yet still crave and withstand physical discipline. I can attest that it’s very hard to give up one’s ‘top’ role, whether in life or lifestyle.
I’m confident that, in the end, the spanko need for interaction will win him out, and he’ll be willing and happy to allow his partner her discretion during times of necessary discipline.
– Dana
I think that in all relationships the partners must respect each others boundaries. They may not share each others fantasies but surely if by discussion and trust a reasonable compromise can be reached then that must be a happy result. I am very lucky in that my Mistress and I have reached a situation were we can try things without any in depth discussion but it has taken us over 10 years to reach this position. The big thing is trust and also understanding. If you trust each other and have long experience of each others boundaries and desires then it becomes possible to act out scenes which if not exactly the fantasy you desired is a close facsimile thereof. It may also require an acceptance by the submissive/bottom that sometimes things are going to happen which might be outside their comfort zone. My Mistress can normally spot if this is the case and will stop, although not always immediately, whatever it is she is doing.By being willing to accept whatever it is she is doing I have experienced things which I fantasised about but never really thought would happen. Some I have enjoyed, some I have enjoyed immensely and others I have disliked and those have not been repeated. These things happen because I am now happy to give complete control of our sessions to her but I repeat this has taken a long (happy) time to come about.
Simon,
I’m sure that my friends will continue to work on meeting in the middle until they find a fit that works for them, just as you have with your top. Taking a long time to get there is definitely part of the joy of expanding our horizons.
– Dana
Some years ago I had a Top who said I had to say the stopword if I didn’t like the spanking anymore. Well, as soon as the spanking started I thought “O that hurts” and was discussing with myself when I would say the stopword. I didn’t say the stopword after a few blows because I thought it was not very nice for the Top and because I knew I wouldn’t be satisfied either afterwards. But I was never satisfied afterwards just because I was in control.
I now have a Top who is really in charge during spanking sessions. I don’t have a stopword and I can scream, shout ‘stop’, cry or try to get away in which I never succeed because he then holds me very tight. During spankings with this Top I often would like to use a stopword, but after the spanking I’m really satisfied and I start to fantasize about the next one.
When I fantisize about spanking I’m never in control and I can’t imagine that you can ever be satisfied (as a sub) if in control, because you keep thinking during a spanking about the moment you will end the session.
So I think it’s a very good idea of you Dana!
sanne
sanne,
Ultimately, I think that once most of us get over that initial ‘hump’ of fear and discomfort, both emotional and physical, that that’s when the real good stuff begins.
Thank you.~
– Dana
This is close to the situation I am in I want my wife to take control but really don’t know how far I want it to go I fantasy about a good hard spanking but have nOt been able to get her to do it. Or do I know what i can take . A little confused about it all right at this point.
Larry,
I think that most of the other male spanko bottoms who contribute to this blog (and the forums) can commiserate with your difficulties.
Finding that right balance can be hard, and doesn’t work for all couples, but with enough patience on your part and willingness on the part of your partner, you’ll be off to a good start.
– Dana
My exwife participated in my fantasies but never really took charge, both her and my last girlfrinend never expressed dislike till the relationships were going south by then it just didnt matter. My current situation is totally different, if it is a punishment spanking I have to take whatever is given. Regular discipline I have safe words but have not used them, I feel I shouldnt be able to. I am you typical exec in control all day and want to be able to give it to someone else.
So I understand this couples situation, I think she should make him sign an agreement and see how it goes. He may find out that is what he wants or maybe he just needs a playful spanking once in awhile, but he never know unless he gives it a try
rokkman,
It sounds like you’re getting exactly what you need. Congrats!
As for my friends, he signed the agreement, right here in front of both his wife and me. I’m hoping that having that piece of paper reminding them both of his commitment will help them more easily deal with the ‘growing pains’ of their domestic discipline lifestyle.
– Dana
for me the “idea” of it is alluring and also something I personally benefit from. that being said, I’m so incredibly shy and I get so nervous those two things tend to end the romanticised feelings or fantasy of how it’s actually going to be.
and by it… I mean spanking. see? I get shy even saying it! hehe
~olivia
Olivia,
I think that it’s perfectly natural that a person is shy or nervous talking about or participating in spanking or discipline. It’s intensely personal, intimate, and jarringly emotional – perfect soil for the sowing of fertile fantasy seeds.
– Dana
Both my top and I go thru this and she was in the business, I think it is just natural.
Yes Ms Kane, I do believe I have found what I have been looking for. Someone who not only understands why, but is willing to and wants to participate. The other day she called me up to see if I was off because she woke and wanted to spank someone. :) It is not only the physical side she gets but also the mental side. I told her the other day I would do anything for her (legal) and instead of saying oh thats sweet or some rubbish, she just looked me in the eyes and said I know! and she pushes the limits on a regualar basis.
Please let us know how it works out for this couple if you can. It would be interesting to see if he can hold up to the bargain and whether or not she picks up the ball and runs with it.
I think it’s accommodating and selfless to attempt to take on the burden of another human being, regardless of the circumstances. And for people with fetishes, we have a big burden. We usually always have to sacrifice something, even those of us lucky enough to find someone to fulfill our needs – even when we have to pay for it. It’s a tough situation that couple is in. But it’s also inspiring, especially for a person who has little faith in humanity in general. It takes a lot of patience, understanding, love and courage to engage a fetish you have no interest in for the sake of someone who means something to you. I do strongly believe there is a possibility this might grow on her, and that Dana is absolutely the perfect person who is capable of lending credibility to faith. Both partners can benefit from this kind of guidance as it must be somewhat uncomfortable and frustrating not really knowing where to start. Asking to be mentored through the process was the second best thing they could have done for their relationship. Compromising for the sake of love was the first.
I 100% agree with the contract implementation. Since this couple, it seems to me, is not very grounded in the experience because one of them is not entirely into it and the other is having a problem merging reality and fantasy – there needs to be some sort of concrete guidelines to get them both through this, such as the contract. I’m sure this will cause some sort of shift in perception, which might lead to something incredible. Maybe she will enjoy the process more if she feels that she is in control and not just catering to a desire she might resent. He will have to take responsibility for his choices and his requests, and submit to his own longings. Either way, he will eventually realize whether or not he is capable of negotiating his fantasy into something that is accommodating to his wife. And she will adjust her thoughts and feelings based on the outcome.
As a spanko, the punishments in my mind never entirely correspond to the ones that occur in real-life. I don’t think that people really ever fantasize about things that are truly aversive to us. It’s just counterintuitive. That’s probably why if fantasies played out in reality exactly as they do in our minds, that would be great for exploring and playing – but absolutely not effective as a punishment. I do believe there is a merging that can take place where fantasy and reality can mingle with very positive results – and that this naturally happens during discipline and punishment sessions.
No matter how aversive the consequence, for me – the part of the fantasy that is always fulfilled is my Top being in control of the discipline. This includes even when she gives me choices in the matter. She is still in control. That will always be where the fantasy has the most power. This means that I will always eroticize the idea of being punished by someone whom I have invested with power and trust – but at the same time, I’m not only giving over my body, I’m also giving over power of my fantasy. This is one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do, even with Dana.
I did not want to stand in the corner. Sometimes I get mad she keeps spanking me when I’m crying and begging and otherwise protesting because it’s bordering on the edge of what I feel I can’t tolerate. But for the record, I have always ended up tolerating it – which increases my confidence in myself, and in her. When it comes to domestic discipline limits, I let her define them so that I don’t do either one of us a disservice. Early on when first meeting her, the first time she attempted to punish me for something serious – I broke under the fear and she did give in to my pleas for mercy.
Now I’ve reached the point where I trust her so much due to her continual investment, her remarkable skill and her immunity to manipulation – that I no longer spend weeks trying to get her to change her mind about punishing me or beg her to lessen the length or intensity of what she has planned. I used to have little fits over that but when I figured out she was in charge, really in charge – and that she could not be persuaded, I gradually began taking immense comfort in that. I’m a control freak in my mind, but she never lets that intercept the reality of our dynamic. In order for discipline to be effect, I have to entrust her with my fantasy that she almost never keeps entirely intact. Having fantasies compromised is a very painful, terrifying thought. I understand where the husband is coming from. But that’s why we were created to adapt and evolve and I’m of the mindset of believe that once he is forced into sharing his fantasy (which he thinks he has been doing all along, but in reality hasn’t) that he might start to release it from his possession so that it can be molded into something that suits both him and his partner.
I do, truly understand. The last thing I will say is that usually in punishment scenes there is a little bit and sometimes a lot of limit pushing that must occur; and real limit pushing interferes with our fantasies (even if the fantasy itself is limit pushing). I firmly believe as a rule of thumb, that the punishment has to exceed the personal pain/discomfort tolerance threshold mentally and/or physically to actually be a punishment. It is up to the Top to take signals from the bottom to gauge when to stop pushing based on how the bottom communicates to her… and even then I believe she should be entitled to just a little bit more wiggle room to use at her discretion (within reasonable bounds) to solidify her authority.
This creates a bond and is a place where trust flows freely and the fear is real and present but never unreasonably threatening. The bond forged between the Punisher and the punished creates the kind of environment necessary for the Top to express her displeasure and for the bottom to be motivated by her disapproval enough to want to change the behavior. In the case of your couple, maybe there isn’t an interest in behavior modification per se, and it’s about wanting to be punished for the sake of the experience- sort of a no-strings attached punishment.
Either way, if the husband wishes discipline in order to change the behavior into something more desirable or whether he just wants a good ol’ fashioned spanking to fulfill whatever needs he is having — it’s still only right to bestow upon his wife some necessary control . This way the discipline is about power exchange and compromising as opposed to catering. Catering breeds resentment that can lead to the destruction of a relationship where compromising promotes strength and endurance.
Well, that’s how I feel about it anyway.
^i^ Angel ^i^
I too, would be geuniely interested in seeing how this plays out. I wish them my best
What she said, holy cow. This covers a lot of what I have been going thru. My only downside is I am looking for a life partner that fufills these needs not just a “hired gun” so to speak. turning over complete control and having faith that she will take me farther than I won’t to go but not enough to seriously hurt me. Well that part is working
Angel,
A friend today brought up a valid point…
‘What if she’s just not a good spanker, and he doesn’t know how to tell her?’
(Your mentoring point is critical here)
In this case, I had the chance to witness her technique, and it was just dandy.
But…
What if it WERE the case? How would one tell one’s partner (who’s trying to do his or her best to satisfy) that they are just plain bad at it?
oxxo
– Dana
fascinating topic. All too often fantasy doesnt meet reality, but kuddos to the non-spanko spouse for trying and kuddos to the spanko for admitting it. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the non-spanko spouse (square-peg) has trouble hitting the tingle-worthy trigger points of the spanko spouse and sliding into the round-hole of a spanko top. (too many mixed metaphors?!)
I’ve seen exactly the same thing from my (ahem, mostly- winking at Dana!) M/F spanking perspective. Met last week with a lifelong spanko young lady. Her husband was well aware of her interest, and they had a huge collection of implements and had tried them all out. Subscriptions to spanking websites, etc… But she still wasn’t satisfied- although it was a turn on for her, she felt like he just indulged her, and it was always a form of foreplay followed by sex. She’d never had that lecture and naughty girl feeling she craved. Happily (not trying to toot my own horn here- just making a point) I was able to give her that, and stopped the rapid-fire hairbrushing just as she started to cry- peering over the cliff but bringing her back at exactly the right time. She loved it. Not that every spanking I give is that magical, but it worked out just right that time.
Again, not trying to toot my own horn and will admit that I’m not the spanker that Dana is, but I think being a good spanking top is about more than just being able to swing your arm holding an implement until the bottom feels pain. You can whack away all you want, but it takes more than that to give a real spanko the spanking they crave.
Mr. Marks,
Nail = head.
I just addressed this, sort of, in my reply to Angel’s comment:
What if the spanker just isn’t very good at it? What if the spanko (fetishist) can’t figure out how to relay to his or her partner that, while they appreciate the effort, it’s just not right?
We’ll have to have a separate ‘Conversation’ for this one, I think.
– Dana
Part 2 regarding the ‘Conversation’ will likely bring great reading and reply material, too.
I have doubts that the title is fitting. I have been spanked passionately twice and caned 4 times (six visits). In some of the spankings and in the 2nd caning I requested and was given breaks. Tis not that fantasy and reality don’t match, but we/I are human and don’t like pain, but we/I can request it cause we/I know it may be good for us/me or have useful purposes.
>While they’ve both agreed that this is a sensible course of action, I’m wondering whether you agree….have I given too much >discretion to the top/non-spanko?
No, but I believe you may be missing an aspect here and there may be some better solutions!
I think you may have missed part of the “problem,” if we wish to call it a “problem.” And I think that the “problem” could be solved without a written agreement and in some better ways.
The “problem” or question isn’t in the agreement, mostly, but in whether or not the provider/wife “can” or does believe that spanking this guy past the point of pain or “no,” or “please stop,” or whatever would be useful, helpful and good for him in some way, or useful, helpful and good for both of them.
If the wife/provider believes that, then, she can have a lot of fun with this guy . . . and restrain or offer to restrain him, when he is requesting a stop . . . or cane him or threaten that the spanking or caning will get worse or that she will flog him, and maybe flog him anyway. And I would suspect the guy would yield to her, even without a written agreement, if she had a little more passion about it, and insisted and “pushed” him. At least, I would . . . and my providers have drawn at least a little blood while caning me.
If the wife/provider does not believe that the pain may be helpful or good for him . . . then, these spankings may be more boring and less interesting in the long run than they could be for him.
>Or does the spanko have a responsibility to his partner to put >up or shut up, so to speak?
I think the receiver does not have any particular responsibility unless they agree to it beforehand . . . There is a provider in Seattle who has part of her practice to provide spanking/caning/whipping and to continue AFter the recipient has requested that she stop, pled that she stop or he is crying or whatever. That is probably interesting, but can’t exist if we insist that the recipient has a responsibility to not request a stop or a break. Also, a different attitude of the wife/provider in this case is probably sufficient to get past these requests, with or without a written agreement.
>If the spankee is always in control of the discipline, is it >really discipline at all, and is the fantasy therefore >unattainable?
The recepient is never in complete control, cause the wife/provider can be somewhat unpredictable . . .
Obviously, this situation has gone down this direction, this time, but in the future, another solution would be to have more of a talk about benefits of pain, together with suggesting being a little devious, and being prepared with some handcuffs . . . and if needed, before the spanking begins, to say, “You would mind being cuffed, I assume?”